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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:53 pm 
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taz wrote:
Every time I've read the comments at The Higherside Chats I wonder what it takes to see hearing about hideous evil plans as 'Getting my fix :grub: '...

I often wonder how unconscious this is for some/most people. My brother - who liked to admit to the inadmissible - often said how he always hoped to hear bad news from his friends, the worse the better. He assumed it was the same for everyone only most people wouldn't admit it. Stated plainly like this, it makes us sound like ghouls, and maybe we are. But I notice it in myself, some part that is hungry to hear the worst possible news even though I would be horrified if it happened.

I have been reading about the Mexican cartels lately (fiction and non-) and one of the primary draws is the desire to hear more and more awful and horrendous acts of violence described. It's not as simple as torture porn; it's some part of me that wants to confirm, over & over, an innate sense that human beings are capable of anything. I believe this was conditioned into me, like an imprint. It can't be a natural biological predilection. It's like using moral horror for self-stimming.

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Are people just happy to not feel alone in thinking (rightly) that something is very wrong? And/But is that their primary concern?

Misery loves two things: company, and a good solid rationale. Nothing worse than feeling guilty and alone in one's misery.

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I wouldn't call it optimism, maybe a frustrated stockholm syndrome.

Something about an identity forged through abuse needing to identify its abusers over & over again to feel that it exists?

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I'm finding the following, otherwise light (as in not heavy) blog, increasingly compelling these days. A post with 1984/BNW stuff here:

https://thefrailestthing.com/2017/11/09 ... eady-here/

Good link, thanks.

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[we interrupt this program...] In your latest post you talk about how to recast Levenda's work in a way that defuses his high information content, or something. I've found that asking the question 'What is the actionable content?' useful.

Actionable has a more common meaning, as in, can I be held accountable, sued, for saying this? Something I had to consider a lot in my most recent book, and that came up talking to Ann Diamond, when she assumed I was talking about not getting sued when I was arguing for journalistic rigor & integrity.

My guess is with Levenda is that the action his writing nudges people towards is occult rituals, since his entire context for deep politics is that of "sinister forces" shaping world history and that these forces can be harnessed by anyone with the chuzpah to do so. At least, that squares with his Simon-mission viz a viz Necronomicon.

I might say, optimistically and perhaps self-servingly, that a robust reading or listening experience doesn't prescribe any action but allows something to occur via the (apparently passive) act of listening or reading. The more introspective the material, the more introspective the experience of the reader-listener can be. The real gold of focusing on moral horrors, I think, is in finding a place within ourselves that can rest within them and not be excited by them, either into outrage or arousal. It is like stretching the circumference of our awareness (mind) while staying rooted at the center (i.e., in the body).

Sounds almost Blakean: "Energy is the only life and is from the Body and Reason is the bound or outward circumference of Energy. Energy is Eternal Delight."

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:25 pm 
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Following Lazycat's suggestion re taking note of what a conspiracy researcher avoids discussing in interviews, Levenda was once asked if he'd ever personally participated in an occult ritual and he refused to answer. A lie would've sufficed, but instead he chooses to draw more attention to his "secret life" . . . I guess that would support your thought here, Jasun—
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My guess is with Levenda is that the action his writing nudges people towards is occult rituals, since his entire context for deep politics is that of "sinister forces" shaping world history and that these forces can be harnessed by anyone with the chuzpah to do so."


It does seem to be open knowledge that Levenda is CIA connected. It also appears to me that his credibility has diminished dramatically since the sinister forces books. His case for Hitler's escape is weak (the photographic comparison alone is laughable). At the time this just seemed like a cash grab. But you could make a case that the rewriting of that story (Hitler's happy ending!!) would have a sinister value within current political contexts (tiki-nazis). His Delonge association seems to have really hurt his reputation... It doesn't seem like anyone's taking that seriously, except in the sense that everyone is seriously trying to figure out what behind this crap... So the effect there is more questions, more obfuscation, more maze... Another effect would be making the UFO field, a cult that already has a huge giggle factor, even less likely to be taken seriously—in this case within it's own community ...

I relate the idea of "disclosure" to the "singularity" —jokingly referred to as the rapture for the geeks. So this would go back to Jung's idea of the technological angel—a savior for the techno-secular world . . . Following that, you would go back to the role of the rapture in traditional religion. Does anyone have a good theologian's take on that? Beyond basic control mechanisms of fear.

Lot of waiting for the impending event horizon. Hearded toward what? . . . Reminds me of the Tom Waits song "I want to know the same thing everyone wants to know—how's it going to end?"


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:23 pm 
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Gib wrote:
It does seem to be open knowledge that Levenda is CIA connected. It also appears to me that his credibility has diminished dramatically since the sinister forces books

From your subjective POV, or have you seen evidence outside of conversations at this and related sites?

Gib wrote:
His Delonge association seems to have really hurt his reputation... It doesn't seem like anyone's taking that seriously, except in the sense that everyone is seriously trying to figure out what behind this crap...

Links to evidence of this? All i have seen seemed to be at least humoring the whole thing.

Gib wrote:
So the effect there is more questions, more obfuscation, more maze... Another effect would be making the UFO field, a cult that already has a huge giggle factor, even less likely to be taken seriously—in this case within it's own community ...

Leading UFO researchers such as Redfern not buying it? I bet Strieber is!

Gib wrote:
I relate the idea of "disclosure" to the "singularity" —jokingly referred to as the rapture for the geeks. So this would go back to Jung's idea of the technological angel—a savior for the techno-secular world . . . Following that, you would go back to the role of the rapture in traditional religion. Does anyone have a good theologian's take on that? Beyond basic control mechanisms of fear.

Technological angel makes me think of the constructed identity as dissociative defense system hooked into Orpha, the transpersonal consciousness that "rescues" the child from trauma, viz a viz Kalsched.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:35 pm 
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I was actually thinking about your chapter on The Counselor (specifically, the notion of complicity) before I even read down to your comment on the Cartel, Jasun.

While describing The Counselor, in Seen and Not Seen, Jasun writes:

“such as the abduction, probable rape and torture, and murder of young Mexican women, and the complicity of US government organizations and big business (really the whole of western civilization, including you and me)”

It strikes me that tuning in to Conspiratainment is a defense mechanism to shield us from the feelings of complicity that we would experience if we were to face the truth. The only way for us to unmask the invisible forces that dominate the world we see is by giving them a face, and that face cannot be our own. As we begin to more harshly feel the effects of these invisible forces, we feel a need to cast light on them, thus Conspiracy culture going mainstream. If the people want it, that’s what the media will give us in it’s pursuit of new markets.

In Morris Berman’s Twilight of American Culture, he hits on the importance of the growing invisibility and complexity (of this global system). This he says, is key to understanding the “McWorld” phenomenon (capital-dominated world, “dumbing down" of society, and exploitation of people in periphery countries such as Mexico).

Perhaps it is the invisibility of these forces(hidden within ruling ideologies) to most people, that makes it easier to give in and try to grab a piece of the pie (like the criminals in the world of the Counselor, which Jasun rightly points out, is our world.). In other words, not many would be okay with the torture/rape of thousands of women without a cover story they can tell themselves about how it is not their fault. But when a series of gluttonous actions leads to this result, and the horror can be written off and the responsibility plausibly denied (Does it even need to be believed?), then those actions become acceptable. And the more this happens, the more complicit we all become, the more we seek a scapegoat.

And if Conspiratainment is indeed a defense mechanism against the thought that we all might be complicit, then I think you are right to declare it pernicious.

Edit: Just saw the last post that brought up the idea of dissociative defense-system :cheers:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:39 pm 
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Perun wrote:
It strikes me that tuning in to Conspiratainment is a defense mechanism to shield us from the feelings of complicity that we would experience if we were to face the truth. The only way for us to unmask the invisible forces that dominate the world we see is by giving them a face, and that face cannot be our own. As we begin to more harshly feel the effects of these invisible forces, we feel a need to cast light on them, thus Conspiracy culture going mainstream. If the people want it, that’s what the media will give us in it’s pursuit of new markets. ...

Perhaps it is the invisibility of these forces(hidden within ruling ideologies) to most people, that makes it easier to give in and try to grab a piece of the pie (like the criminals in the world of the Counselor, which Jasun rightly points out, is our world.). In other words, not many would be okay with the torture/rape of thousands of women without a cover story they can tell themselves about how it is not their fault. But when a series of gluttonous actions leads to this result, and the horror can be written off and the responsibility plausibly denied (Does it even need to be believed?), then those actions become acceptable. And the more this happens, the more complicit we all become, the more we seek a scapegoat.

Great points, very elegantly presented. Sort of self-evident when stated so clearly, innit?

I imagine the counter-argument would raise the question of "what's the point in feeling guilty if you can't do anything about it?" But then the point isn't to do something but to stop doing something (scapegoating, redirecting blame, obfuscating the problem).

The hardest part perhaps is to acknowledge the part of us that enjoys seeing/imagining other people's misery and suffering. That even pays money to watch simulations of it or read descriptions of it. The viler the evil, the better the conspiratainment.

This must be the self-care system that self-stims with trauma-imagery in order to dissociate?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Jasun wrote:
I imagine the counter-argument would raise the question of "what's the point in feeling guilty if you can't do anything about it?" But then the point isn't to do something but to stop doing something (scapegoating, redirecting blame, obfuscating the problem).


I get this quite often, or usually something like "Why so bleak? Can't you just enjoy what you have?". But this is exactly why we are all complicit, because it is so easy to reject this notion and focus on our own lives.

Jasun wrote:
The hardest part perhaps is to acknowledge the part of us that enjoys seeing/imagining other people's misery and suffering. That even pays money to watch simulations of it or read descriptions of it. The viler the evil, the better the conspiratainment.

This must be the self-care system that self-stims with trauma-imagery in order to dissociate?


I think so .
%%^9
We have projected our own roles onto specific individuals through this dissociation. The schadenfreude lets us feel better about ourselves, no longer aware that we were complicit all along?


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