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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:33 pm 
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Jasun wrote:
gregtramel wrote:

uh there are very pronounced women in the film


Jasun wrote:
_+=9

air hostess and govt official's daughter?


there are a couple of more women but the intent focus on the air hostess and her role seems very pronounced as well as how the call to his daughter goes down


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:22 pm 
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Jasun wrote:
cultish devotion and obsessive intellectual gamesmanship



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:03 pm 
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This is putting into words what I felt reading the Mark Crispin Miller piece on Kubrick .. Sort of fascinating - but unsure what it has to do with the actual movie?

Jasun wrote:
Maybe it's my own prejudices but the way that Kubrick-interpreters have to twist and stretch the narrative as if it was made of silly putty speaks more to the power of the movies to inspire cultish devotion and obsessive intellectual gamesmanship than it does to anything that is demonstrably there in the movies themselves.

Simply put, greg's interpretations tell me lots about greg, next to nothing about the movie itself.

This is what the Kubrickon is. But can greg see it? Sweatyk couldn't, and so he had to split.

Greg: where's your evidence that Kubrick was conveying any of these messages besides by citing other fanboys' elaborate readings of the film?


HAL10 got hit by a car.

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HAL10 got hit by a car.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:03 pm 
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Jasun wrote:
Simply put, greg's interpretations tell me lots about greg, next to nothing about the movie itself.


well yeah, I wouldn't watch movies or listen to music or read books if it wasn't for that


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:46 pm 
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Greg: I confess to not really understanding what you are arguing here, if indeed you are arguing.

To give the latest example, you put forward the idea that 2001 is criticizing a non-feminist or patriarchal culture by having women in subservient roles (even here i have to guess/fill in the blanks). When I ask for evidence, you say the movie itself is the evidence. And when I suggest that your reading tells me more about you than the movie, you tell me this is why you watch movies! (In other word, I assume, since you never seem to say anything clearly) that you watch movies so you can project your own subjective experience onto them and find out about yourself.

So then, how exactly is the movie evidence (for anyone else) of your readings of it?

gregtramel wrote:
there are a couple of more women but the intent focus on the air hostess and her role seems very pronounced as well as how the call to his daughter goes down

The intent focus is on the zero gravity environment, not the fact that there's a female stewardess! Dude!

gregtramel wrote:
I've never said he was a great filmmaker; I wouldn't even put him in the top 5 American/UK writer/directors if I had a gun to my head and had to make a list

OK, how about the top 10? Top 20? How low down greg's list does Stanley have to be not to count as a great filmmaker?

You keep posting about your own subjective experiences of 2001/Kubrick as if to present counter-arguments to those I or others are making but it seems to me that you are merely disagreeing because you disagree. Neither you your sweatyk has ever said, Hey, I like this movie and here's why. Instead you try and present these strangely hermetic, gnomic readings which aren't meant to communicate why you like it but rather to assert that the movie is great and Kubrick is prophetic genius/anti-elite/feminist, whatever.

You know what I think? I think neither of you really DO like these movies, or Kubrick for that matter. I think you want to because he/they impress you intellectually and in terms of craftsmanship (and possibly "message," at least if you read them based on a prior conviction that Kubrick is an artist and therefore a humanitarian). The reason I think this is because there's nothing TO like in these movies unless/until you break them down to shots and angles and unpack all the supposedly hidden messages in them ~ which is the pleasure of solving a cinematic riddle, an exclusively intellectual pleasure.

Minor point, or maybe not: if Kubrick is such a prophetic genius of cinema, how come his version of 2001 has no ethnic characters and only subservient women characters? (Which by the way isn't remarkable for a 1968 sci-fi movie, so the only argument that Kubrick was making a political statement with it, so far at least, is a circular one, based on, once again, on the idea that, since he was Kubrick,he must have intended some radical meaning there.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_astronauts

gregtramel wrote:
I'm thinking the fetus at the end looks very cartoonish like it is poking fun of Nietzsche's Overman and infering the idea of a Superman only belongs in the comics

You have disappeared all the way down the rabbit-hole of Kubra-lunacy now, greg. Where's the clutching at straws smilie? %monkey&8

What your "evidence" indicates is that you are desperate to believe something about Kubrick. I just can't figure out why.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:29 am 
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I enjoy constructing 2001: A Space Odyssey. I like reading the text. Why? If I could simply articulate why then 2001: A Space Odyssey would not be a very good text.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:33 am 
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Jasun wrote:
that you watch movies so you can ... find out about yourself.


yes, I read texts to find out about myself


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:55 am 
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Admittedly, I have failed miserably trying to put a coherent string of words together for why I think Kubrick's films are worth rewatching and why I like them. I need to work on my writing.

I've also failed trying to explain why I don't feel Kubrick's films are State propaganda and instead are in my reading quite the opposite. I will work on that.


Last edited by gregtramel on Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:07 am 
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I totally agree creating a top 5, 10 or whatever list is nonsensical and I only included it an attempt to communicate a gauge as to where I put Kubrick's films in the canon of filmmaking. I do agree, as Jasun has said elsewhere, I can't remember where, that it is useful to take into consideration what filmmakers have influenced Kubrick. I also find it interesting to know which filmmakers count Kubrick as a major influence. But in the end I think we should let Kubrick''s films speak for themselves. My reading of Kubrick's films are emotional responses along with intellectual responses.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:54 am 
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This came up researching Prisoner of Infinity, pt two, relevant here also (as is the fact that John von Neumann, along with Khan, was a model for Dr. Strangelove; Strieber wrote a story about von Neumann and the visitors, "The Open Doors")

Quote:
Acid Dreams: The Complete Social History of LSD: The CIA, the Sixties, and Beyond: Martin A. Lee, Bruce Shlain:

While Rand Corporation specialists pondered whether LSD might be an antidote to political activism, the Hudson Institute, another think tank with strong ties to the intelligence community, kept tabs on shifting trends within the grassroots psychedelic movement. Founded by Herman Kahn, one of America's leading nuclear strategists, the Hudson Institute specialized in classified research on national security issues. Kahn experimented with LSD on repeated occasions during the 1960s, and he visited Millbrook and other psychedelic strongholds on the East Coast. From time to time the rotund futurist (Kahn weighed over three hundred pounds) would stroll along Saint Mark's Place in New York's East Village, observing the flower children and musing on the implications of the acid subculture. At one point he predicted that by the year 2000 there would be an alternative "dropped-out" country within the United States. But Kahn was not overly sympathetic to the psychedelic movement. "He was primarily interested in social control," stated a Hudson Institute consultant who once lectured there on the subiect of LSD.

The psychedelic subculture and its relationship to the New Left and the political upheavals of the 1960s was the subiect of an investigation by Willis Harmon, who currently heads the Futures Department at the Stanford Research Institute (SRI). Located in Palo Alto, California, this prestigious think tank received a number of grants from the US Army to conduct classified research into chemical incapacitants. Harmon made no bones about where he stood with respect to political radicals and the New Left. When Michael Rossman, a veteran of the Berkeley Free Speech Movement, visited SRI headquarters in the early 1970s, Harmon told him, "There's a war going on between your side and mine. And my side is not going to lose."

http://www.levity.com/aciddreams/sample ... tanks.html

This "future-now" technique developed by Kahn seems like a key development - how big a step is it from imagining one is in the future to enacting the future? Actually, that is one of the devices recommended by NASA for teachers of "Space Science":

Quote:
Future Studies and Space Exploration - ER

..Simulation gaming requires more extensive preparation but also transfers learning out of the textbook and into the experiential realm.

Hypothetical or actual conflicts involving groups, nations, or individuals provide a framework for the evolution and testing of strategies appropriate to the particular goal of the chosen game. Games should be constructed to avoid the cheap or quick victory. Therefore, game development often proceeds experimentally, until the bugs can be worked out. Of course, playing such games can consume a great deal of time and consequently might be considered a "laboratory" experience.

Suggested game topics include: limited or limitless growth, space funding, star wars‹the military in space, U.N. conference on communications resources, energy‹the space option, and designing the manned Mars mission. All of these topics suggest obvious multivariable problems and opportunities for competing philosophical or technical objectives. Some games are designed specifically as no-win games which allow a variety of conclusions; sometimes the process of the game is more important than the outcome. Such factors should be clearly stated in the game instructions.

...Success in the game can be measured in terms of accumulation of position, wealth, resources, positive decisions, or success at compromise, cooperation, or adaptability. ...

List of futurologists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_futurologists

An incomplete guide to the future; Willis W. Harman
San Francisco Book Co., 1976

Quote:
Scenario planning first emerged for application to businesses in a company set up for researching new forms of weapons technology in the RAND Corporation. Herman Kahn of RAND Corporation pioneered a technique he titled “future – now” thinking. The intent of this approach was to combine detailed analyses with imagination and produce reports as though they might be written by people in the future. Kahn adopted the name “scenario” when Hollywood determined the term outdated, and switched to the label “screenplay”. In the mid – 1960’s, Kahn founded the Hudson Institute which specialized in writing stories about the future to help people consider the “unthinkable”. He gained most notoriety around the idea that the best way to prevent nuclear war was to examine the possible consequences of nuclear war and widely publish the results (Kahn & Weiner, 1967).

Around the same time, the Stanford Research Institute began offering long-range planning for businesses that considered political, economic and research forces as primary drivers of business development. The work of organizations such as SRI began shifting toward planning for massive societal changes (Ringland, 1998). When military spending increased to support the Vietnam War, an interest began to grow in finding ways to look into the future and plan for changes in society. These changing views were largely a result of the societal shifts of the time.

The Hudson Institute also began to seek corporate sponsors, which exposed companies such as Shell, Corning, IBM and General Motors to this line of thinking. Kahn then published “The Year 2000” (Kahn & Weiner, 1967), “which clearly demonstrates how one man’s thinking was driving a trend in corporate planning” (Ringland, 1998, p. 13). Ted Newland of Shell, one of the early sponsors, encouraged Shell to start thinking about the future.

The SRI “futures group” was using a variety of methods to create scenarios for the United States Education system for the year 2000. Five scenarios were created and one entitled “Status Quo Extended” was selected as the official future...
Link

Also: ARC: The Tomorrow Project

Quote:
What kind of future do you want to live in? What are you excited about and what concerns you? What is your request of the future? The Tomorrow Project is a fascinating initiative that investigates these questions and explores not only the future of computing but the broader implications on our lives and planet.

In this unique time in history, science and technology has progressed to a point where what we build is only constrained by the limits of our own imaginations. The future is not a fixed point in front of us that we are all hurtling helplessly towards. The future is built everyday by the actions of people. It’s up to all of us to be active participants in the future and these conversations can help us do just that.

A major focus of the Tomorrow Project is to sponsor competitions that generate science-based fiction that explores possible futures. These stories can be used as inspiration to scientists, or as data for cultural anthropologists.

http://tomorrow-projects.com/
http://arcfinity.org/index.php
Behind the scenes at Arc the journal of the future http://arcfinity.tumblr.com/

Quote:
"Sixteen years ago Adam Kahane came to Colombia and worked with us on the future of our country. The four scenarios we built back then have come to life, one after another, and today we are living the best one. Transformative Scenario Planning: Working Together to Change the Future by Adam Kahane


And finally, to get on topic:

Science Fiction Film as Design Scenario Exercise for Psychological Habitability: Production Designs 1955-2009

Quote:
The second part involved an illustrative case study reconstructing, from previously unpublished archive material,
the main conceptualisation stages of the design of the food dispensing system in one particular film from the sample set, Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey. It is suggested that, in the particular case examined, the process of film production design development can be regarded as a space design study.

http://www.spacearchitect.org/pubs/AIAA-2010-6109.pdf

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